My family raised me the proper way parents ought to raise kids and they taught me what I ought to be taught as well, and there were rules I had to adhere to and follow in the house and maintain proper discipline as well as inside and outside.
My parents WERE very strict, TODAY it really is different, you'll find out that 99% of kids have whatever they want, whenever they want it and that's THAT!!
Today kids take advantage of that factor now. And even if we try to be strict with them, like our parents were with us, they run and take shelter, and get away with lots of smiles and laughs instead.
When kids are young Parents raising kids have to learn that yes parenting is trial and error. You got to set ground rules now or else it will be a nightmare down the road...
I see alot of mistakes today with the way Parents raise there own children and I know if we don't say anything now how are the kids to ever learn from there own mistakes?
Getting back to why there are Laws and we as citizens have to obey them or else there are consequences.
(06-27-2010 08:19 PM)ZiNgA BuRgA Wrote: [ -> ] (06-27-2010 04:04 PM)Technoman Wrote: [ -> ]No, this is the whole point, if we dont lay rules down now and let them get away with it now, what will our futur as parents be like or the kids of the futur? No rules No Regulations?
Its better to teach them now the right from the wrong so that they can teach there own children of there futur the same.
So that there is a constant flow of rules...
You're over generalising.
The whole point in being a teenager is to break rules, is it not?
This has nothing to do with knowing whether something is right or not - they're not braindead.
I'm sure practically every teen knows they shouldn't be looking at porn, but do you think they care?
Should parents be so draconian to remove their kids' wants of personal privacy?
(06-27-2010 04:23 PM)Harry Wrote: [ -> ]Thus they cannot legally enforce copyright or anything else.
Copyright is peculiar in that it's automatic. You don't need to sign anything to own copyright over something.
(06-27-2010 04:23 PM)Harry Wrote: [ -> ]However if the author is of age and has a signed contract then you better believe they can pursue the matter in court.
Can doesn't mean they will. Litigation is an expensive and tiresome process, especially in common law countries like the US.
You need to stop thinking about law and more on the realities in an open source community.
(06-27-2010 04:23 PM)Harry Wrote: [ -> ]Same thing for the buyer. The buyer cannot legally hold a minor responsible because any such contract with a minor is void because the minor cannot sign a legal binding contract. It does not matter what you are doing on or offline.
There are, of course, exceptions. For example, a kid can go into a store and buy a lolly. Legally, that is considered a contract.
(06-27-2010 04:23 PM)Harry Wrote: [ -> ]Too many on here try and get around that by doing basically what you did. Not saying you meant any harm either. There is laws that cover this stuff on the net but most just don't understand or ignore them.
Online, it's much more difficult to enforce things. For one, the two parties may not exist in the same country, and then it can be a little unclear over what rights each party has.
Getting it to work can be very costly and time consuming. Reasonable people generally don't bother, unless they can potentially (and with a reasonably good chance) win a large reward for the effort.
$10 subscription fee? No way anyone's gonna take that to court.
I suppose not unless the 10 buck product really causes some damage somehow? Point is the person selling it claiming this and that and is a minor is lying to begin with. Surely you are not gonna defend lying? In this regard technoman has a point. They should be doing it the correct way and not half ass.
And sorry but buying something from a store is completely irrelevant to this. They are not being asked to SIGN a contract. All they are doing is handing over money to the cashier and not signing a thing. Thus the difference. This btw is why i have been a huge advocate of people charging for support vs the plugin/theme. Don't have to get into a binding contract. If people want the support they will pay up. Putting a different license ( non GPL ) etc for said plugin/theme involves a binding contract. As is if i were to buy something from someone not of age i could do whatever i like including slapping my own copyright on it and making it my own. That is because the kid is not of age to do such a thing. Usually why young actors, artist etc have a adult handle their stuff till they become of age. Understand now?
Still though open source or not once you bring in a commercial environment the door opens to this stuff. Open source alone? No i highly doubt it as well. This is why most who run online businesses will go to IPB/vB instead. Called peace of mind as everything is above water. I honestly don't think a few will ever get it and no it is not me making a big deal. People DO pay attention to this stuff especially when they have a business and or a professional as well. The main issue is how MYBB has done this. It has been terrible to say the least. And YES i know they are trying to clean it up some. However it will do very little if not more thought is poured into it.
How i would do it if they go with the LGPL and perhaps do a site for those who wanna charge..
Make sure everyone of them selling/Non GPL license is of legal age. This protects MYBB and the person looking to purchase whatever plugin/theme it is. MYBB starts handing out trusted developer ( or whatever it is ) and hosting stuff by people LYING about stuff such as copyrights etc MYBB is gonna look bad and yes put them at risk. People are gonna call it a joke. Not to mention as mentioned above if anyone wants they can steak the work and call it their own ( if a adult ) because there is no copyright etc on it because it was done by a minor who cannet be held to a binding contract. Those guys wanna do it the right way then get their mom/dad ( adult ) to handle the license etc of said product. This applies to those selling and or non GPL stuff. Great thing about the GPL is you don't have to worry about that stuff. With GPL everything is as is and all is free to do whatever they like with it. GPL is a non binding contract and thus the difference because you are free to do whatever with it unlike a closed license which puts stipulations on it and thus a BINDING contract.
Ofcourse if MYBB stays with and enforces the GPL all of this is moot. All MYBB really has to do is remove the closed license stuff from the site and nothing more. Guess the bigger question is exactly how many underage are already doing this and thus have not taking the proper steps? As mentioned they could charge for support instead.
Either way MYBB needs to not do it half assed no matter what they do. They need to find someone to bring on the team that has a good understanding of these matters. That way it is done right.
Whatever you say, regardless of it being right or not, is completely useless if no one cares. No one cares about age laws on the internet, and I don't see anyone enforcing anything on the regards, so it's pointless. Besides, how does one confirm the age of the other party? I doubt you know or can confirm my age with any certainty.
As for MyBB trying to appeal to larger businesses, perhaps paid support is a way to go. I personally don't think MyBB should target larger businesses at this point - it's not their strength. Age has little to do with this. If I were to provide paid support over the internet, there's no contract I sign anywhere, though there's still an implicit contract, similar to one buying something from a store.
(06-28-2010 04:30 PM)ZiNgA BuRgA Wrote: [ -> ]Whatever you say, regardless of it being right or not, is completely useless if no one cares. No one cares about age laws on the internet, and I don't see anyone enforcing anything on the regards, so it's pointless. Besides, how does one confirm the age of the other party? I doubt you know or can confirm my age with any certainty.
As for MyBB trying to appeal to larger businesses, perhaps paid support is a way to go. I personally don't think MyBB should target larger businesses at this point - it's not their strength. Age has little to do with this. If I were to provide paid support over the internet, there's no contract I sign anywhere, though there's still an implicit contract, similar to one buying something from a store.
Reason nobody has really cared is because nobody ( atleast ) in the forum software industry is about to do what MYBB is talking about doing. Again this is why artist/musicians have adults/legal guardians handle their copyright stuff and contracts. The minor cannot. Sure MYBB/PLugin/theme authors could take the i don't care approach. Again though none of their work will be protected. ALL copyright laws work the same and a copyright is a binding contract which a minor cant enter into.
As for your question i should not have to worry about how old they are. I wont use it regardless. This is another reason why i don't bother with the paid stuff. Too much of a hassle. When it comes to minors i don't like to take chances. Hopefully you understand that. That's not on me but more so them anyways. Basically don't complain if someone come along and steals their work if the license was not properly done. Either way nothing changes as far as legalities go vs what we have now if MYBB goes with LGPL. Changes for adults and that is it. I don't make these laws. Just explaining them. Personally i think alot of our laws in this country are outdated. Times and people have changed. All i can do is vote for change.
Your example is still not the same. Again no NAME is signed on a contract etc.
Honestly it is no biggie to me what people do. I am free to avoid it if i so wish. Just explaining how this stuff works. MYBB is looking into doing something nobody else has in the forum industry. None of us really knows what will happen but something to keep in mind i suppose.
Contracts don't need to be signed. At least in Australia (which should have similar laws to that of the US), the statutory definition of a contract is an agreement - it does not have to be in writing. Written and signed contracts are just easier to prove in a court of law, than, say, verbal contracts, but as far as the legal system is confirmed, buying a product from a store is a contract just like signing an employment contract. A defence against enforcing a contract, can be that one of the parties are unable to fully understand the contract, etc, but being a minor does not exempt you from enforcement.
Anyway, if the people said they weren't minors, would you agree to do business with them?
(06-28-2010 07:24 PM)ZiNgA BuRgA Wrote: [ -> ]Contracts don't need to be signed. At least in Australia (which should have similar laws to that of the US), the statutory definition of a contract is an agreement - it does not have to be in writing. Written and signed contracts are just easier to prove in a court of law, than, say, verbal contracts, but as far as the legal system is confirmed, buying a product from a store is a contract just like signing an employment contract. A defence against enforcing a contract, can be that one of the parties are unable to fully understand the contract, etc, but being a minor does not exempt you from enforcement.
Anyway, if the people said they weren't minors, would you agree to do business with them?
In the USA it has to be signed. Nothing is binding unless it is signed here. You go to court with no signed contract you have no case.
Would depend on who, what, and where it is. I am not gonna lie. As you know i do business with IPS. Most likely i would do what i do at my one forum when i am not sure. I would request some documentation proving they were not a minor if in doubt and i really needed it. BTW.. As you know the forum is a weather forum and we run offers for those in the business and thus Meteorologist and they get a badge identifying them as such on the forum. To get that badge they have to submit a copy of their college Degree, ID etc to us. Have a couple of hundred that has done so. I actually do this on my MYBB forum as well. All the sites in my niche do.
I think the problem Harry is everywhere people giving up or they turn there cheeks and they really don't care and this to me in my eyes is plain old ignorance.
(06-29-2010 08:43 AM)Technoman Wrote: [ -> ]I think the problem Harry is everywhere people giving up or they turn there cheeks and they really don't care and this to me in my eyes is plain old ignorance.
It depends. A number of people i know do keep tabs on their kids activities online. I believe more and more people are. However i do think parents are not teaching them alot of the basics with common courtesy/manners etc. Where i am from you were taught to respect your eldors. You see less and less of that now on and offline. I don't think the laws in this country are helping either but that is a rant for another thread at another time.
BTW.. You need to go a little easier on them over there. Surprised they did not take your head off yet.
Remember as well MYBB has a ton of young people who use it /team members etc unlike alot of the other software.
(06-29-2010 09:23 AM)Harry Wrote: [ -> ]Remember as well MYBB has a ton of young people who use it /team members etc unlike alot of the other software.
20 pages and counting over on mybb as I write this, now im starting to realize its seems that only kids are responding to this topic and NOT 1 Adult of the MyBB Support Team has yet said one word or view on this topic? Its very surprising!
(07-02-2010 10:28 AM)Technoman Wrote: [ -> ] (06-29-2010 09:23 AM)Harry Wrote: [ -> ]Remember as well MYBB has a ton of young people who use it /team members etc unlike alot of the other software.
20 pages and counting over on mybb as I write this, now im starting to realize its seems that only kids are responding to this topic and NOT 1 Adult of the MyBB Support Team has yet said one word or view on this topic? Its very surprising!
Someone feel free to correct me if i am wrong but i believe that the only adult team member ( 18-21+) is the owner/founder of mybb and thus Chris Boulton who is either 21 or 22 i do believe? One of the other admins might be but i am uncertain? Ryan Gordon is about 18. Most of the team members are in the 13-17 age range.
As said a large number/majority of mybb users are young people. I am a old guy ( 40 ) to nearly everyone over there. Call me pops!