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ZiNgA BuRgA Wrote:Unfortunately, I'm finding myself spending less and less time on this.  Yes, I'm kinda loosing interest.  Coding MyPlaza was a challenge, and now that it's mostly over, there isn't much left for me to be interested in, unfortunately...
The other thing is that I was expecting some developers to help, but have received none, so I guess all that time I spent on the framework was really only useful to myself...


I'm very suprised... Surprised

You must surpass this idea. Please... don't go...
Great MyPlaza is the best money system for MyBB. Great
And you are the creator.
Oops
Don't let us... please.
Love

We love you... for your work !
Yes
Hi goindex,

Thanks a lot for your encouragement and support.  I really do appreciate it.

I noticed you also posted this at the MyBB Community.  As I somewhat would expect, it hasn't received any replies (if it were a tantrum thread posted by someone like labrocca, it would have had over 40 responses by now).
That's okay for me.  labrocca is a businessman, so obviously, he needs to get a high liking amongst the community so he can get good business connections and opportunities. (considering how much he earns, who wouldn't?).
I work for free, and don't bother trying to get a high liking amongst the community.  I do this out of interest, and the fact that I like to help others (ie MyBB Group) who spend a lot of time and give their works away for free.  I could be very compassionate and appear very hard working etc, but I don't want to - I'm a coder, not a businessman.

Having said that, when I developed MyPlaza, I totally misinterpreted my "target audience".  I expected there to be some lurking developers, and some others who would understand code quality a bit better than a typical end user.  Alas, none of this was true.

Well okay, I'll try and tackle this big project alone - I was certain I could do it (and I have done it so far).  So I release alpha versions.  People seem to ignore the fact that alpha versions are typically full of bugs, and install it on their production boards.  WTF?  Does anyone have any intelligence here?  I mean, I hadn't even installed it on my own boards - perhaps that signifies something?
I dunno.  Nonetheless, I provide support for those who've had these odd issues.
I installed MyPlaza on my main board after v0.4 - as I was starting to focus on finding and fixing bugs.  And thus, we arrive at the stable v0.5x beta releases, which are probably stable enough to run on production boards.

MyBB uses a much better model however - they keep betas private - this stops idiots in the community (hate to say anything bad about the community, but, really, there are some idiots in most communities) from totally screwing up their boards.
So why don't I do this?  Firstly, the way I release alpha versions, is to allow others to find the bugs for me, so that I could focus on development.  This is what allowed me to release such a large plugin, to this stage, in only about 3 months.  But, primarily because not many would do private testing for me, especially for another money system, where MYPS is "perfect", correct?

As for MYPS, MyPlaza was never intended to be a competitor, however, it seems that most people thought of it that way.  Originally, my intentions were:
  1. Show that large plugins do exist for MyBB - if you take a look, the majority of plugins are around 100-500 lines long.  There's a few 2,000-3,000 line plugins.  I think the Game Section would be the largest, at around 6,000 lines (last time I checked).  In contrast, MyPlaza is over 16,000 lines of code long.  And my coding style is fairly compact (ie, many things written in MyBB in ~10 lines, I do in about 3).  So if I used a similar coding style to MyBB, as well as not be so lax on my commenting, I'm sure MyPlaza would be over 20,000 lines long, which is around 3 times larger than any other MyBB plugin.
    Okay, that may not sound that great to you - a 20,000 line plugin only takes 20 times the amount of time to write a 1,000 line plugin, right?  WRONG!  I could write a 1,000 line plugin in a day.  However, I can certainly tell you that MyPlaza was not written in 20 days.  As codebase grows larger, the complexity to maintain and continue it grows exponentially.  MyPlaza is probably about 1/5th of the size of MyBB, in fact.  MyBB has been developed over 3-4 years, and by a team of developers.  MyPlaza is done by a single developer, over 3 months.
    For those who say that more != better, I agree with you.  However, MyPlaza has a very high standard of coding.  If you read me saying so before, you'll see how much effort has gone into optimization and the likes.
  2. To give MyBB a quality shop system, not available on any other forum software.  I have yet to see a shop system which is based off AJAX for example.  Also, I haven't seen any other system which has such an extensible framework as MyPlaza.
  3. Provide a "benchmark" for MyBB plugins.  MyPlaza uses many techniques which no other MyBB plugin uses, such as dynamic code loading, passive hooking and optimized multi-row updating.
  4. I also wanted my own shop system.
  5. Of course, a personal challenge.


So why didn't I base MyPlaza off MYPS?  I've been asked this before, however, I really don't want to talk foul about another person's hard work (especially after labrocca's little tantrum he threw).  But since not many people are going to read this, meh.
MYPS is vulnerable to a number of attacks, including XSS, request forging, SQL injection and so on.  The other main issue is that MYPS causes excessive querying on showthread, which can cause larger boards to cause excessive usage towards the MySQL server (see my speed comparisons for some details).  To fix these, much of the code would have to be rewritten, so I may as well write up a completely new system, with all these flaws fixed.  And I didn't particularly like the code design of MYPS anyway.

Of course, this is also where I got my target audience wrong.  Firstly, speed isn't really a matter, as there's basically no large MyBB boards.  So excessive querying doesn't really matter - most MyBB boards are so small, there's going to be a very minor effect, overall, to a site's performance.  And not many people at MyBB Community are coders, and. know much about security.  Heck, I doubt many people would know how to exploit the HIGH RISK execution vulnerability fixed by MyBB 1.2.11. (it's really quite simple, but I won't be going around showing people how to exploit MyBB).
That is why many people install MYPS, it looks like it works well, so they consider it "perfect".  I should've noticed that, but I stubbornly didn't.
The other point is that labrocca "oversells" his plugin, like most businessmen do (ie, saying that there's no bugs in his plugin, when, I could point out quite a few), whereas I tend to "undersell" mine.

Anyways, there's also been a few other annoying issues when developing such a large plugin.  One of them is issues with other plugins.  Perhaps one of the most notorious is the Forum Warning System.  The FWS, does a few language hacks, when loading itself in the AdminCP.  The problem is, it doesn't clean up it's mess after it's finished loading, meaning that other plugins will be unable to load their language vars, since FWS has destroyed MyBB's language system.  This has caused the fairly spread "AdminCP links don't show up" problem.  (I actually only learnt this recently; before, I simply couldn't figure out why this issue was occuring).
This isn't an issue with MyPlaza, however, in the v0.5x series, I written specific code which will detect a broken language system, and attempt reconstruction, to fix this flaw in the FWS.
There have been a number of other issues with plugins, such as the Classic Rep System causing the missing Usertitles in posts.  And of course, PHP bugs are great too, right?

Perhaps the biggest thorn in my back is the general reception of MyPlaza.  Sure, I've received many compliments, and I really do take those in (without those, I probably would've stopped development ages ago).  However, I've also gotten many outrageous requests, including people asking me to rewrite MyPlaza to be compatible with MYPS and so on (yeah, like I'm going to rewrite over 10,000 lines of code for you, and make my plugin run like crap).  People also complain about this and that.  To those - how about you try writing up a 16,000+ line plugin, and not have any issues?
I knew the MyBB Community was small, and that the small number of plugins released (relative to other board systems) meant that there weren't too many third party devs around.  However, the reception I received was probably lower than my expectations.
Although I don't consider ratings much, if you take a look at MyBB Mods, MyPlaza has an average rating of 60%, by 15 voters.  To me, that suggests that there's some major flaw in the plugin.
So if the general community thinks my plugin sucks, or could use a lot of improvement, well then, so be it.  The majority of the community seems to fail to understand the amount of forethought that went into this, plus the amount of time it takes to write a 16,000+ line plugin.

I know that I could do things like force people to say "thanks" to download MyPlaza, but really, I'm only fooling myself.  Which is why I don't force people to register to download attachments here, and so on.

I also had a number of large-ish plugins planned for MyBB 1.4 (ie a fully featured download section, plus a multiforum script), but I've now decided to keep them private.  I'm not going to repeat what I've done with MyPlaza.  Plus, this will allow me to save some time, coding for different platforms, compatibility with other plugins, plus not having to provide support as well as spending time to make a nice AdminCP interface.
I also plan to depart from the MyBB Community later.  Whilst the staff there are certainly very kind, I'm not particularly pleased with my experiences with the community.  I'll probably keep this site up, and respond to support and requests here.
If I were to leave with a suggestion for MyBB Community, it would be to encourage more 3rd party plugins.  I see a lot of incentives for themes, for example, theming contests, however, I never see the same for plugins.  In a sense, now, I'm not so surprised that there aren't many 3rd party plugins for MyBB.  A bit of a shame, considering that MyBB has a reasonably good plugin system.  I see that there's many nice comments on submitted themes, however, I've posted a number of plugins which haven't received any comments (look at the Syntax Highlighting plugin at the MyBB Community), let alone the hated "Thanks" comment.  Although I personally don't mind too much, other devs may.
Lastly, people seem to like those who make many small plugins, rather than large ones.  As stated above, it's MUCH easier for me to write over 100 small plugins, than it is to write MyPlaza.  Thus I'm not going to bother with large plugins anymore (at least, publically).

Lastly, PHP has been interesting.  It's going to be a useful tool to me in writing auto-download scripts for myself, as PHP is much better at parsing strings than VB6 (what I've previously been using).
I've also developed some programming techniques, which I wouldn't have, had I not fiddled with this scripting language.
So I haven't left this empty handed.  But I need to move on, and learn other stuff.  Recently, I've been fiddling around with the DirectX API - it's something I've been wanting to learn for a while (I've only fiddled around with GDI before).


Sorry to sound so negative, I really do appreciate your concerns and encouragements, but hopefully, I've explained my intentions and explained why I have decided to slow any development on this project.
Now with this I do agree with Zinga. Look at Ryan Ashbrook's inventory shop - nearly a year of development (on and off) - with barely any reception by the community.

Their are barely any large plugins for MyBB - and there should be more. The only thing I have ever disliked about MyPlaza is the name (sorry, reminds me of vBplaza Tongue) - and that is because it is an amazing plugin. It is the only major plugin (of any forum system) that utilizes ajax to the degree that it does. I have always wished to use MyPlaza on my forums, but as I am not releasing any forum until 1.4 is out, and MyPlaza may not be upgraded, then I'll use Ryan's Inventory Shop.

And now you have started to release little plugins, I am even happier Biggrin, especially now that LeX also seems to have disappeared.

No idea what I was getting at in that post, but I just wanna say thanks and good luck Smile

P.S - If you ever get that download thing finished, permit me to buy a copy Wink
Unfortunately I can't relate to what you're saying as I don't write plug-ins, but your work has always seemed to be top-notch from what I've used.  You and Lex- have become my 2 favorite go-2-guys for plug-ins, but now Lex- has shut down his boards and decided to move on with his life.  Maybe he's tired of the noobish questions and helping people who don't understand PHP.

I hope you can cope with nubs like that and continue to help us.  I know I'm a PHP noob and will be asking for help if I can't figure it out.  =(

I have always looked at Myplaza, but it wouldn't suit my forums as I am a leader of a gaming clan or guild, whichever you know and it's more just gaming news and tips & tricks.  Seems to be a very intense plug-in with a lot of support from you for it.


Anyways, keep up the good work, Zinga
-Shemo
Kinda sad to read about this.....I do agree with this issue... I think one of mybb's biggest flaw is the lack of modders. It is a great system but the environment to encourage people to make plugins are simply missing....

Most modders are now either AFK, waiting for mybb 1.4. I see only you and lex being active in the mod section...Now, with lex gone and you about to leave the community, mybb community is going to be even more dead Frown......

I was hoping someone will release a blog / gallery plugin for mybb this yr... but i think it is going to be even more remote now........

Anyway, you are one of the best coder i have seen. Your efficiency is amazing and your works are all quality products ! Good luck in ur future endeavors ! Hope you continue to release plugins here....
ohhhh please ZiNgA BuRgA....AwwOuch
what will be with your plugins?
I understand what you're dealing with when you get all them complaints and requests, Zinga. I can relate to this with my designing. Wink

I know, I know, I was one of those "stupid" people to install MyPlaza on my production board. Tongue But hey, I really liked it.

And since, if anyone's noticed lately, that LeX- has closed his forum and moved on from developing plugins (apparently) there will obviously be another lack of great mods, which is why I encourage you to continue, if you're still interested.

I have designed themes with the idea in mind of helping the community, not for my own personal gain. However, some of the reception of my themes have been good, while others very bad. I've been being told lately that if I don't improve my design "style" and become like the other designers who can code their themes, my themes will become hated and unused.
And just how am I supposed to improve my coding skills (of which I have none Tongue) when I can't code and don't have the time to do it? LOL
My project, MyBBThemes, was not intended to be a competitor either. Not to all the big designers who can code. I was simply interested in giving the communities more themes, but people are making it a competition to see who can design the best, and the fastest. I'm not in it for that.

I agree with the fact that I also will be departing from the MyBB Community before long. I am losing interest in making themes, plus some of my experiences with the staff there haven't been the best. Not something I'd want to repeat.

I'll end this with the fact that you make awesome plugins, and I for one appreciate the time and effort spent on them. Smile
Firstly, thanks a lot everyone, for providing support and for your kind words.  It is really nice for me to see people like you guys Smile

blueparukia Wrote:Now with this I do agree with Zinga. Look at Ryan Ashbrook's inventory shop - nearly a year of development (on and off) - with barely any reception by the community.
It's surprising to see how dedicated Ryan is.  I'm not - I don't think I could sustain any project for a year...
I don't want to put people down, but on the programming side, it's not the best.  Ryan isn't exactly an experienced coder, so I wouldn't expect it to be great anyway.
But really, he has put in an amazing amount of effort.

blueparukia Wrote:I have always wished to use MyPlaza on my forums, but as I am not releasing any forum until 1.4 is out, and MyPlaza may not be upgraded, then I'll use Ryan's Inventory Shop.
I'll probably update it for MyBB 1.4.
MyPlaza was developed with 1.4 in mind.  I'll probably have to do some minor changes, as well as modify the wrapper functions.
The largest component would be the AdminCP.
Interestingly, some of MyBB 1.4's features were present in 1.2.12...

dvb Wrote:ohhhh please ZiNgA BuRgA....AwwOuch
what will be with your plugins?
I'll probably continue to provide support here, and possibly continue to answer requests here.  However, I'm planning to slow down development, and probably won't bother with support at the MyBB Community soon.

RR2 Wrote:I know, I know, I was one of those "stupid" people to install MyPlaza on my production board. Tongue But hey, I really liked it.
Not really.  You at least tested it out beforehand.  And most of the issues you were having, I later found out were because of other plugins.
Plus, when you did request support, you were very kind Smile

RR2 Wrote:And since, if anyone's noticed lately, that LeX- has closed his forum and moved on from developing plugins (apparently) there will obviously be another lack of great mods, which is why I encourage you to continue, if you're still interested.
Thanks for the encouragement.  Unfortunately, I'm not a committed person, unlike others.  I don't feel a need to help the community, generally.  I like communities which give away stuff for free, which is why I helped.
Like you, I don't do it for personal gain.  I don't want a reputation, or to have hundreds of people going "Great!" etc.  However, if something is disliked in general, I'm not so dull to blatantly continue.
But, as mentioned, my primary motivator is my own interest...

RR2 Wrote:I have designed themes with the idea in mind of helping the community, not for my own personal gain. However, some of the reception of my themes have been good, while others very bad. I've been being told lately that if I don't improve my design "style" and become like the other designers who can code their themes, my themes will become hated and unused.
Hmm, instead of trying to say a lot of nice words, I'll try to give a suggestion.  Perhaps you may want to consider a different style Tongue  Do something odd, out of the blue.  You can sometimes learn some interesting things that way, even if you don't like the end result.
I dunno, I like to try different things at times, which is one reason why I've decided to move on.
I hadn't done any sort of web development, about 8 months ago.

RR2 Wrote:My project, MyBBThemes, was not intended to be a competitor either. Not to all the big designers who can code. I was simply interested in giving the communities more themes, but people are making it a competition to see who can design the best, and the fastest. I'm not in it for that.

I agree with the fact that I also will be departing from the MyBB Community before long. I am losing interest in making themes, plus some of my experiences with the staff there haven't been the best. Not something I'd want to repeat.
That's sad to hear.  If you do, I hope we can keep in contact Smile

RR2 Wrote:I'll end this with the fact that you make awesome plugins, and I for one appreciate the time and effort spent on them. Smile
Thanks a lot.  You've certainly dedicated much of your life to (excellent) designs, and I'm sure the majority of the MyBB Community enjoys them Biggrin


Thanks again everyone!
Dude! Omg... How can you rant onn  and onn about how no body appreciates your work or likes it!?! We all LOVE it! You know, since you continue to provide support, request fulfillment and everything... You're just killing us with these taunts of "no more big plugins for you mybb users" Tongue!! Dude, you have got to be just as talented as Tiki! Maybe, better! You're a pretty kick a** guy ZiNgA... And it would be such a shame to let you stop throwing the community a bone. Heck, since there aren't many great (big) plugins, besides MyPlaza, I'll even take up PHP if it means you'll keep putting out stuff for MyBB!

And look at Ryan Ashbrook! He's working (volunteering) for iBB! And look at his still forthcoming dedication to MyBB, still!

Look at yourself! If all of those people in your thread(s) are requesting additions to MyPlaza, imagine how many copies are installed. If that many copies are installed, that means that there are a HUGE number of fans of yours... which include myself and others (Like above).

If you look at the way everything is going down, everyone... Well, I can't say that, but what I mean to say is everyone who has seen your work, is going to be disappointed. It's just as critical as if you were quiting all together, or imagine it were your job... would you quit that? I know I wouldn't... even though I haven't had a job (besides one web design gig with Tiki).

If everyone paid you for this would you continue? I know I would pay to have you keep going on coding big stuff for MyBB... Honestly, if money were a factor would you do this?

It is my utmost concern because you are by far the kindest, most controlled, pleasing, satisfyingly comprehensible person I have had the honor to meet... Please don't give up on us (I know you haven't entirely, but still...)!!!!

EDIT: and dude! Just look at how may people have registered here, already! You have 40 people here... I only have 2 registered members at my forums (that have been up for about 1 and 1/2 years now)! You've got a lot more demand than I do...
Hey... ZiNgA BuRgA...
I think you must to read this.
I hope you learn something from hemi says there.
If you need a break... ok. Sometimes friends need them too.
But don't give up on us . It may be impossible to leave. Smoke

Edit:
ahero4heor Wrote:If everyone paid you for this would you continue? I know I would pay to have you keep going on coding big stuff for MyBB...
I agree...
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